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  • #16
    ok.
    now we are really grasping at straws.
    the ign system on that engine is composed of two primary parts.
    ignition PRODUCING.
    ignition CON*****ING.

    that is why we start by testing ign PRODUCING components.
    easiest way is can it jump a 7/16th gap.
    if it can we are mostly done with that part.

    now we can move on to ign CONTROL

    does the CPS work correctly?
    does the TPS work correctly?
    does the ECT work correctly?

    if so we can move on to fuel control.
    does the MAP sensor work correctly?
    does the intake air work correctly?

    at idle warmed up with the lower unit SUBMERGED does the O2 sensor voltage scale between about .35 and .6V?

    at idle you can cover the #1 cyl intake air bypass hole and watch the O2 sensor voltage,should climb close to .9v when covered and rapidly drop when uncovered.

    at a steady cruise of about 3500 RPM the O2 sensor voltage should stay at about .35V.

    excessive rail pressure at low speeds will cause issues,
    monitor rail pressure at all RPM's.

    once all the above things are looked at pulser coil outputs and CDI outputs can be monitored.
    there are such things as in range sensor failures.

    if a sensor,other than O2, fails you will see base ign timing lock at 7*BTDC.

    depending on the sensor it may or may not advance past 7*BTDC and top speed may or may not be reached.

    if a pulser coil were to fail.
    that cyl wont spark.
    fuel would be injected to all 6cyl via the intake air pressure sensor.
    ign timing will be FIXED at 7*BTDC.
    idle speed at about 1100 RPM and top speed cannot be reached.

    what I typically see after a backyadigan got his skinners on an OX66 is something failed, idle speed increased so the backyardigan starts skinning on the throttle stopper screw.

    remember EFI does NOT have an idle speed screw.

    unplug any sensor other than O2 and intake air and you will see ign timing jump from about 7*ATDC to about 7*BTDC and idle speed jump to about 1100 RPM.

    a faulty intake air wont affect timing at idle but it may run rich.
    the O2 sensor is not monitored other than does it have any signal.

    if unplugged,no signal at all,
    then fuel is fixed rich at idle and lean above 4000 RPM, DO NOT run above 4000 RPM.

    if the ECU gets a signal from the O2 sensor it will act on that signal reguardless of if the signal is correct or not.


    this is where a Kv tester ,fuel rail tester, diagnostic test lamp and my DVA come into play.
    my Kv tester can quickly confirm or eliminate spark.
    it can isolate what cylinder has excessively low or high Kv.

    low compression,rich fuel,fouled plug or weak primary coil inputs can cause low Kv.

    open gap,bad cap resistor or lean A/F mix can cause a high Kv.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by rodbolt17 View Post
      ok.
      now we are really grasping at straws.
      the ign system on that engine is composed of two primary parts.
      ignition PRODUCING.
      ignition CON*****ING.

      that is why we start by testing ign PRODUCING components.
      easiest way is can it jump a 7/16th gap.
      if it can we are mostly done with that part.

      now we can move on to ign CONTROL

      does the CPS work correctly?
      does the TPS work correctly?
      does the ECT work correctly?

      if so we can move on to fuel control.
      does the MAP sensor work correctly?
      does the intake air work correctly?

      at idle warmed up with the lower unit SUBMERGED does the O2 sensor voltage scale between about .35 and .6V?

      at idle you can cover the #1 cyl intake air bypass hole and watch the O2 sensor voltage,should climb close to .9v when covered and rapidly drop when uncovered.

      at a steady cruise of about 3500 RPM the O2 sensor voltage should stay at about .35V.

      excessive rail pressure at low speeds will cause issues,
      monitor rail pressure at all RPM's.

      once all the above things are looked at pulser coil outputs and CDI outputs can be monitored.
      there are such things as in range sensor failures.

      if a sensor,other than O2, fails you will see base ign timing lock at 7*BTDC.

      depending on the sensor it may or may not advance past 7*BTDC and top speed may or may not be reached.

      if a pulser coil were to fail.
      that cyl wont spark.
      fuel would be injected to all 6cyl via the intake air pressure sensor.
      ign timing will be FIXED at 7*BTDC.
      idle speed at about 1100 RPM and top speed cannot be reached.

      what I typically see after a backyadigan got his skinners on an OX66 is something failed, idle speed increased so the backyardigan starts skinning on the throttle stopper screw.

      remember EFI does NOT have an idle speed screw.

      unplug any sensor other than O2 and intake air and you will see ign timing jump from about 7*ATDC to about 7*BTDC and idle speed jump to about 1100 RPM.

      a faulty intake air wont affect timing at idle but it may run rich.
      the O2 sensor is not monitored other than does it have any signal.

      if unplugged,no signal at all,
      then fuel is fixed rich at idle and lean above 4000 RPM, DO NOT run above 4000 RPM.

      if the ECU gets a signal from the O2 sensor it will act on that signal reguardless of if the signal is correct or not.


      this is where a Kv tester ,fuel rail tester, diagnostic test lamp and my DVA come into play.
      my Kv tester can quickly confirm or eliminate spark.
      it can isolate what cylinder has excessively low or high Kv.

      low compression,rich fuel,fouled plug or weak primary coil inputs can cause low Kv.

      open gap,bad cap resistor or lean A/F mix can cause a high Kv.
      If someone knows how to do it,
      This post needs to be turned into a troubleshooting OX 66 motor info from Rodbolt17 and saved so others can find it easily.

      It would save people and Rod time so he does not have to keep retyping it

      Comment


      • #18
        I may have typed it at least twice now.

        but its the same I really don't care what type of articulated rod internal combustion gasoline motor.
        its like this.
        suck
        squeeze
        bang
        blow.
        everything else just helps it go.
        IF we can suck in the correct air/fuel ratio.
        IF we can compress said A/F mix.
        IF we can ignite the mix AT the correct time.
        IF we can get rid of spent gas
        dang thang runs.

        that's why I use an adjustable spark tester capeable of up to 8 inputs and a compression tester as a starting point.
        1 can we actually compress the gas?
        2 can the ign system actually make enough voltage on the secondary ign side to jump a 7/16th gap?
        then we can deal with what is the spark timing in relation to the piston.

        Comment


        • #19
          Winky Blinky

          I have opportunity to purchase 90890-06865 this is the diagnostic test light.

          I am aware that my Yamaha manual calls for 90890-06765 and that the most current part number is -06795

          Should I buy the light for 60.00 (supposedly new condition) or spend 130.00 for the -06795.

          Can I make the light?
          If its got teats or tires, you bound to have trouble with it....

          Comment


          • #20
            beats me.
            biggest difference is the lead length and the later version will work on 4 strokes.
            bad thing is its back ordered.
            I know cause ours quit.

            can it be made, I am sure of it.

            Comment


            • #21
              Winky Blinky

              Received a winky blinky today.

              Shows code 33 for 30 seconds then code 1.
              I believe this is normal, no fault.
              The code 33 is just showing adjusted timing until she's warm.

              Injector fuel pressure goes to 47 at ignition on then drops back to 42 PSIG after a few seconds. At start and idle she stays in the 43 PSIG area.

              None of the sparks will bridge my homemade 7/16" air gap, either engine.
              It is two copper HV insulated conductors, isolated and secure. One end good ground the other good contact in the caps. The air gap is in open air. Should it be encased in a plastic box? I have to work more on this.

              Warm compressions are all 135 ish. I will have to obtain a differential compression tester (leak down) and see what that shows. As I type, I also want to do a cold compression as the idle smooths out sometimes when warmed up.

              Again, If I hold it high idle the cylinders will start to kick in, idle increases then smooths out intermittently and occasionally I can come back to the idle stop where she'll idle smoothly without stalling ( for a short period of a minute or two ) If shut off, it will start back in the same condition right away.

              If I shut her off for a period of two three minutes she's back to her low 3-500 idle, and easily stalls. In operations, once you get her running she pulls just like the port engine runs.

              Any more ideas? I know I have some more investigating to do. In this previous post, I systematically have swapped many components engine to engine with no change in results. I am meticulous when doing this "scatter gunning" to try to not create technician induced problems. Thank you for the reminder Rodbolt.
              If its got teats or tires, you bound to have trouble with it....

              Comment


              • #22
                what type of fuel are you feeding your motor ?
                rail pressures look high, even tho you swapped tanks, have you seen a pres reg filter ?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Fuel pressure regulator

                  Hey JB, Thank you.

                  I am running 90 Oct non alcohol rec fuel from Martin County Petroleum. With a dose of Ring Free Plus.

                  No, I have not looked at the regulator filter screen.

                  I did however, check the port engine and it is running well, at a similar pressure indicated range.

                  Keep in mind this is no where near a calibrated to NIST standards gauge. At ambient pressure it is indicating about 5-8 PSIG.

                  I have yet to get the Mighty Vac out and check the actuation of the regulator I/A/W the maintenance manual.

                  I assumed (and I know what that implies) that in swapping the VST's, that I would notice any indication that my fault was somewhere in those systems.

                  I am gasket poor and am trying to narrow down my fault.

                  Thank you, If I am lacking a crystal navel, I sure do appreciate anyone pointing that out.
                  Last edited by FabricGATOR; 11-13-2013, 12:22 AM. Reason: Missing content.
                  If its got teats or tires, you bound to have trouble with it....

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    after re reading this thread I have noticed you have not measured charge coil or pulser coil peak voltages .

                    Seems if you cannot get the spark to jump the proper gap, that could be a problem since Rodbolt said charge coil output will affect a bank

                    Lift pumps can also leak fuel into the pulse ports if leaking, just because they pump fuel does not mean they are not leaking and causing some cylinders to be running too rich

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      99, thank you.

                      Peak voltage. I do not have the yamaha tester and peak adapter.
                      I do have a fluke DMM that has max, minimum, and average voltage seen.
                      Do you think this would suffice for peak volts?

                      Lift pumps..... Ahh. Now that's a hint. If I check them with mighty vac IAW the maint manual, Is that a real test. Should I just go ahead and replace diaphrams, check valves, or anything while they are off the engine? What are the common parts needing replacement in the lift pumps?

                      I found an adjustable spark gap test tool. I am going to fetch it now. Also going to borrow differential compression tester.

                      What size socket do I need to secure the crankshaft nut at the flywheel?
                      If its got teats or tires, you bound to have trouble with it....

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        get a DVA adapter to use with your DMM
                        Last edited by 99yam40; 11-14-2013, 11:02 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 99yam40 View Post

                          Have read to unbolt the lift pumps without disconnecting lines and push on bulb to make sure fuel does not come out of pulse port, but if manual says to use vac to check for leaking diaphragm I am sure that would work
                          Well, I misstated the procedure. You use the mighty vac tool to apply pressure to confirm a check valve. 11.4 psi against check (opposite flow)

                          Apply pressure to pump with outlet blocked to confirm pump integrity. 7.1psig

                          and pull 4.3 psig vaccuum against the internal check valve to ensure integrity

                          Then apply 7.1 psig with pump outlet open.... not real sure what they want there, probably ensure that internal check valve allows passage.
                          Originally posted by 99yam40 View Post

                          Have read to unbolt the lift pumps without disconnecting lines and push on bulb to make sure fuel does not come out of pulse port, but if manual says to use vac to check for leaking diaphragm I am sure that would work
                          So your check would be to unbolt the pumps and then squeeze the fuel bulb to ensure no leaking into the vacuum actuation port (pulse port)(center hole on mounting gasket) Ooohh, I get it. Good point. Thanks for the tip.

                          I just ordered 4 complete Yamaha pumps for 32 each. I don't know when they were last serviced and its cheaper than the parts to replace diaphragms.
                          Even the Sierra diaphragm kits were 28. And I try to stay OEM. Yamaha for Yamaha, I learned that back in the FJ-600 cycle days.
                          If its got teats or tires, you bound to have trouble with it....

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Ignition producing / Ignition con*****ing....

                            More test equipment more results.

                            So I got this cheap little adjustable ignition spark tester, borrowed a differential compression tester.

                            LIFT PUMPS:
                            I unmounted the lift pumps as 99yam40 instructed and tested with the primer bulb for fuel communication to the pulse port. I did not get flow to the pulse port but rather to a hole on one of the mounting bolts. A quick check noted that the pump assembly screws were not fully torqued. After re-torquing them they passed the suck, blow, and reed valve tests IAW the maint manual.

                            SPARK GAP:

                            (1) 1/4" (2) .030 intermittent
                            (3) 1/4" (4) .no spark noted
                            (5) 1/8" (6) .no spark noted


                            COLD COMPRESSION: (conventional)

                            (1) 132 (2) 128
                            (3) 128 (4) 125
                            (5) 130 (6) 127
                            • Winky Blinks code one after about 5-7 pulses code 33 while she warms up.
                            • Idle fault is intermittent, sometimes she run OK after warmed up, mostly runs strong above 1700 warm.

                            Appears I probably have an "Ignition Producing" problem. What addition test(s) should I perform before resume I scatter gunning under the flywheel?

                            Anyone know what size socket I need to get the flywheel nut off of my SX150TXRY. I'm going to have to purchase or borrow. I know its metric and it is bigger than 1 1/2"
                            If its got teats or tires, you bound to have trouble with it....

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by 99yam40 View Post
                              get a DVA adapter to use with your DMM

                              this should tell you if voltages are in spec

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 99yam40 View Post
                                • get a DVA adapter to use with your DMM
                                this should tell you if voltages are in spec


                                Thanks 99yam,

                                I know, I have to whittle a capacitor out of two bottle caps and some silicon from home depot. Its going to take some time.

                                I'm heading out to sea for a while, and as much as I'd like to have this trouble shot before I start my prison sentence, I'm afraid I just going to have to bench this until mid December.

                                I've already swapped the ignition coils and the CDI's from engine to engine, what else could be left asides from the stator. Maybe I need to clean the breaker points.... again.

                                Originally posted by rodbolt17 View Post
                                the injection system is sequential, rules that out for bank to bank.
                                only thing I can think of that would take out a bank is poor stator charge coil voltage.
                                the OX 66 motors don't use a high and low speed,even though some manuals referenced it that way, they go bank to bank.
                                one coil feeds voltage for one bank the other coil the other bank.
                                As Rodbolt stated previously, Ignition producing and Ignition con*****ing. I can't jump the gap.

                                whoops, I left all my tools out in the rain.
                                If its got teats or tires, you bound to have trouble with it....

                                Comment

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