yamaha 200 saltwater series stalls when put into gear slow

[DennisG01]

If you're truly looking for help, why have you not responded to some of the suggestions/questions? Unless I'm missing something, I'm out. This feels like it was a complete waste of my time.

[xandar11]

salt water series

Scott, I was thinking it might be as simple as shifting too slow and engaging the shift cutoff switch too long (or possibly the switch is hanging up/flaky)? I know the main purpose of this switch is for coming out of gear, but it still cuts spark when going into gear, right? Or am I mistaken on that?

hello dennis whear will i find the shift cut out switch thanks greg

[xandar11]

salt water series

i have had the carbs cleaned before service and after and new fuel filters and cleaned out every wear still the same thanks greg

[rodbolt17]

the shift cut switch only works when shifting OUT of a gear.
it allows the cluctch to back away from the gear by momentarily reducing the load on the propshaft.
however a 2000 model 2.6L carbed motor does NOT have a shift switch.
mostly cause for the US market Yamaha did not offer a carbed 200 HP motor in 2000.
this is where a MODEL FREAKING NUMBER helps us all.
post the MODEL number and we may be able to help.

however I still am looking for the part number for an alternator, its for my ford.

[DennisG01]

Rodbolt... in the search for a better understanding of how these Yamahas function (I'm more familiar with sterndrives), would you mind indulging me for a minute?

-- I know my 250 has a switch. Why would a 200 not have one? Is there something different with the gear design?

-- A cutoff switch is simply a microswitch with a simple on/off function. Am I correct on that? I understand the logic behind needing the switch to get OUT of gear, but wouldn't the switch, itself, still activate when going into gear? Assuming that's true, couldn't shifting too slowly cause the engine to cutout long enough to completely stall the engine? Meaning... I believe the switch is normally closed, but if it stays open too long, then a stall happens? Or possibly the shift linkage is out of adjustment?

Thanks for any light you can shed on this! Much appreciated!!!
Dennis

[boscoe99]

Rodbolt... in the search for a better understanding of how these Yamahas function (I'm more familiar with sterndrives), would you mind indulging me for a minute?

-- I know my 250 has a switch. Why would a 200 not have one? Is there something different with the gear design?
Dennis

Not Rodbolt but...

The biggest mistake that anyone can make is to think that because one model Yamaha functions in one manner that all other Yamaha's function in a similar manner. Even the same basic model can vary depending upon the year of production.

An S200 has a 90 degree block. The S225/250 uses a 76 degree block. As stated, the S200 does not use a shift cut switch whereas the S225/250 do. Perhaps it is because with more HP there is a greater load on the gears and this necessitates a shift cut switch?

Now going forward in time, smaller HP models (F150 for instance) also may use a shift cut switch to facilitate shifting from into gear to neutral. Maybe more of a customer satisfaction issue than a real requirement.

Here is what Yamaha has to say about the shift cut switch on a V76 (225 and 250HP only) model:

Shift-Cut Control
It is usually more difficult to shift a larger outboard motor out of gear into neutral than from neutral into gear. This is due to the motor’s torque loading on the propeller. This torque load is transmitted to the shift dog mechanism. On this model, the Shift-Cut Control reduces engine load on the lower unit gears which makes shifting easier. This circuit only activates from 400 to 3000 rpm. The heart of this circuit is an ignition
shift cut switch located next to the shift bracket. Shifting out of gear places the shift mechanism in a bind due to the torque load on the propeller. Binding causes the shift bracket to pivot, which activates the cut-out switch. The closed switch signals the computer to misfire cylinder numbers 1 and 3. The effect is to reduce propeller torque so the clutch dog can disengage from the driven gear easier. The switch turns off when the unit shifts to the neutral position.

[DennisG01]

Thanks, Boscoe. I appreciate the extra information.

No arguments on the "out of gear" part - that the way I've always understood it to be, too. And, you're right, I'm doing some assuming based on my engine having one and that the stern drives (Alpha's) have one. And if those (either switch or cable) acted up, it could cause stalling. Bravo's don't have a switch, but they have a different type of gear set so I assume that's why they don't. I just found it strange that a 250HP and 200HP are designed differently as they're so close to each other. But, yup, that's an assumption on my part!

Now, from what you wrote it looks like I reversed the open vs closed circuit thing. And that sounds like it sheds some light - given what you posted and what Rodbolt said about the 200 being a carb'd engine, whereas my 250 is FI. One of the differences there, obviously, is that my engine has a computer and it would receive a signal from the switch to tell it what to do.

However (and this is back to the assumption thing), the carb'd engines with an Alpha drive use a switch, too. But I suppose given the torque differences between a 4 and 2 stroke, that could explain it? Maybe also why the F150 you mentioned uses it? I was thinking that even the little 4-cylinder Merc uses one (and it's only 135HP), but it is still 3.0 liters. So that brings me back to your thought of torque/power being the reason.

I tried manually shifting on my spare 250HP that's in my garage to see if the switch would only physically activate during the 'coming out of gear' swing, or would it also activate while going in. But I felt like it was too hard to move the lever by hand so I didn't want to push it. I didn't know if the engine had to be running (like a Bravo drive) or if I just needed more power - but didn't want to chance it. I tried unhooking the shift lever from the shift rod (vertical one) but I couldn't replicate the correct arc that the shift slider/bracket needs to go through to contact the switch. I was doing this to try and figure out if the switch is only physically activated during movement out of gear, or if does get activated both in/out but the computer then determines what to do. Rodbolt mentioned "only out of gear", so I was just trying to figure out the underlying reason on my own so you guys wouldn't have to write as much.

Thanks again - I love the discussion!!! Very educational.

[TownsendsFJR1300]

From checking the shop manual for my F150, (as you can see below), below a certain RPM, ignition is simply retarded, above that RPM, an ignition cut out which is apparently used for BOTH going into gear and out of gear;

[boscoe99]

My understanding is that the shift cut switch closes only when the motor is being taken from gear out of gear but it would not surprise me if some model, some where, had two switches, one for going into gear and one for coming out of gear. There is no reason that I can think of why it would be needed going into gear since there is no load on the clutch dog.

I suspect the F150 manual is in error (no surprise there) when it says that it allows smooth engagement and/or disengagement of the dog clutch.

Who in the hell knows why some Yams have 02 sensors, some Yams have shift cut switches, some Yams have Primestart devices, some have electric fuel pumps, etc. and others don't.

Yamaha apparently likes to keep their mechanics/customers guessing. You can't really tell by the SM in all cases because they are woefully lacking. The parts catalog is the best bet but even then some parts (rollers for the throttle system for instance) don't even show up the parts catalog.

But it gives us something to chat about. Keeps the old noggin thinking if one is not drinking too much nog.

[DennisG01]

No nog, yet. But I will starting on a Hot Buttered Rum very soon!

These are pics from the spare '00 250 OX66 in my garage. The pencil is pointing the switch. The bracket (the canoe-shaped thing where the shift cable would attach) will rotate CW and CCW (the way we're looking at it) about 1/4". Just enough to depress the switch. The bushing that the shift cable would attach to (currently in the middle of the canoe - I'm ), will slide forward and aft, in accordance to forward and reverse gear. I "suspect" that what happens as one shifts is that as the bushing moves forward (as you shift), about halfway through it's travel it would rotate the canoe to depress the switch. When the bushing completes it's travel to the front of the canoe, the canoe would rotates back to it's resting position whereby the switch is released.

If the above is correct, then it stands to reason that the switch will get pressed whether we're shifting into or out of gear. So if it would be true that the cutout does not function going into gear, then the computer would have to control that.

OR... And I'm just writing as I think of this....

In order for the switch to get pressed, the canoe has to rotate CCW (again, the way it's pictured here). We know that the when the shift cable is attached, it will push and pull on the bushing...

-- When the shift cable pulls the bushing forward, the bushing will ride along the starboard edge (the bottom edge in the picture as this is on the starboard side of the engine and the front of the engine is to the right in the picture). This would not allow the canoe to rotate as pressure needs to be put on the port side to cause CCW rotation. NOW, when we shift out of gear to push the bushing back to center (neutral), then the bushing would ride against (put pressure against) the port side of the canoe and cause it to rotate CCW, thereby pressing the switch.

The same idea would hold true when shifting the other way.

Boy, I hope that makes sense! If it doesn't, maybe I should try AFTER the rum!

[IMG][/IMG]

The pencil is pointing at the switch

[IMG]<a href="http://s768.photobucket.com/user/DennisG01/media/FAEF93DC-006E-4F7D-8A54-1C364409CF61_zpsl6quumz5.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx322/DennisG01/FAEF93DC-006E-4F7D-8A54-1C364409CF61_zpsl6quumz5.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo FAEF93DC-006E-4F7D-8A54-1C364409CF61_zpsl6quumz5.jpg"/></a>[/IMG]

[DennisG01]

No nog, yet. But I will be starting on a Hot Buttered Rum very soon!

These are pics from the spare '00 250 OX66 in my garage. The pencil is pointing the switch. The bracket (the canoe-shaped thing where the shift cable would attach) will rotate CW and CCW (the way we're looking at it) about 1/4". Just enough to depress the switch. The bushing that the shift cable would attach to (currently in the middle of the canoe - I'm ), will slide forward and aft, in accordance to forward and reverse gear. I "suspect" that what happens as one shifts is that as the bushing moves forward (as you shift), about halfway through it's travel it would rotate the canoe to depress the switch. When the bushing completes it's travel to the front of the canoe, the canoe would rotates back to it's resting position whereby the switch is released.

If the above is correct, then it stands to reason that the switch will get pressed whether we're shifting into or out of gear. So if it would be true that the cutout does not function going into gear, then the computer would have to control that.

OR... And I'm just writing as I think of this....

In order for the switch to get pressed, the canoe has to rotate CCW (again, the way it's pictured here). We know that the when the shift cable is attached, it will push and pull on the bushing...

-- When the shift cable pulls the bushing forward, the bushing will ride along the starboard edge (the bottom edge in the picture as this is on the starboard side of the engine and the front of the engine is to the right in the picture). This would not allow the canoe to rotate as pressure needs to be put on the port side to cause CCW rotation. NOW, when we shift out of gear to push the bushing back to center (neutral), then the bushing would ride against (put pressure against) the port side of the canoe and cause it to rotate CCW, thereby pressing the switch.

The same idea would hold true when shifting the other way.

Boy, I hope that makes sense! If it doesn't, maybe I should try AFTER the rum!


The pencil is pointing to the switch:

[DennisG01]

Just out of curiosity, I pulled up the parts catalog for the '00 200HP. There are a number of different models listed (pointing to Rodbolts request for model numbers). If I'm reading it correctly (and if it, itself, is correct) the models beginning with L, V & Z all have the cutoff switch. The model beginning with an S does not.

[boscoe99]

Speaking of nog or rum, where the hell is rodbolt?

[DennisG01]

He must have started early... Should we try and catch up?

[boscoe99]

He must have started early... Should we try and catch up?

I am on my second glass of Pinot Grigio at the moment. So, if my words become garbled (although my thoughts shall remain clear) yee shall know that it is the wine that is doing the talking.