Yamaha F80 2002 ignition

[akis-yamaha]

Hello guys, I have a broken Yamaha F80, 2002, petrol, 4 stroke.

This a question trying to diagnose an issue and I am not near the engine to take a close look:

I believe that stator feeds 3 wires into the rectifier/regulator through a round connector. Then, the regulator feeds the system via its red wire - which I presume is the DC 12V-14V or thereabouts.

Does then everything derive from this "DC 12V" supply, eg the CDI, the rest of the ignition system, the fuel pump (is it electric?) ?

Or are there OTHER/Additional stator connections to some other parts of the system?

In other words if the stator were removed, if even the regulator were removed, would the engine still fire properly running on the battery (assuming the battery was good) ?

Many thanks
akis

[boscoe99]

Would help if the issue were known. Also, the complete model identity of the motor.

The F80 offered here in the USA has carburetors. By the use of the word "petrol" methinks you are not from around this neck of the woods. So, if your motor has carburetors then it has a mechanical fuel pump. If it is fuel injected then it has both a mechanical fuel pump and an electrical fuel pump.

Where is Rodnut? Need him to ring in on this model. I don't see a charge coil as being used like is seen on most Yam two strokes.

[akis-yamaha]

I will relate the history at the end of this post.

The full type is Yamaha F80AET model 2002 and in the US it seems to be equivalent to the 2002 F80TLRA (the electrical pages seem spot on).

It is 4 stroke "gasoline" with 4 carbs. So the fuel pump is mechanical, as you said, and that's a small relief.

After I ran the engine for about 2-3 minutes at highish revs with the positive battery pole disconnected, and with what looked like a faulty regulator, the engine stalled, would not start again, and there was a smell of burn which I could not identify later.

Currently the engine is not starting and am not getting sparks at the plugs. Plugs are OK, and when we crank the engine I get some AC voltage (5-6V) at the connector coming from the stator into the faulty regulator.

So my question is, do I even need the stator/regulator for starting and running the motor, or is the battery good enough (as long as it lasts)? Or has the stator got more wires leading to other parts of the engine I have not identified and is thus needed for starting and running the engine?

[akis-yamaha]

Issue leading to current problem:

1) Engine running perfectly except instruments read 16V + and flash.
2) Disconnect negative lead from battery on a 20 min journey trying to "save the battery from abuse".
3) At the end of journey I put the negative poles back, and there was definite rust on the leads although battery and poles are brand new.
4) After I reconnected the poles, the voltage readings come back to normal, with full revs up to 14.xV and no more. It seems like a miracle.
5) Engine is being used for 5 weeks with no issues.
6) Then voltages start reading high again, this time reaching 17V and over.
7) Disconnect positive battery terminal trying to save battery from such abuse.
8) Engine runs for around 3 minutes then stalls and does not restart.

[boscoe99]

I would not be disconnecting the battery while the motor is running.

Did the motor run OK for a number of years and then the voltage from the R/R rise to its high value?

Does the motor run just fine when the battery is connected, even though the voltage appears to be high?

The reason why I ask is because the service manual indicates that the peak output voltage of the R/R, when the motor is running at 3500 RPM, is 18 volts.

Does your multi-meter have a setting for peak voltage or do you have an adapter to read this type of voltage?

F80/F100 rectifiers were known to have a high failure rate. Do you have the original part installed or has the updated part been installed?

[akis-yamaha]

It did run OK but you have to press the mode button twice on the instruments to get it to display voltage so am not sure as I only started checking this season.

The motor ran perfectly with battery connected even though the voltage was flashing at 16V and later at 17V. I also measured the voltage on the battery directly in case the instrument was faulty but they agreed.

I am not sure what peak output voltage means in this context? I was getting over 15 and 16 volts almost contstantly.

I measured DC voltage using two meters on the battery poles. In both cases the reading matches the Yamaha console instrument.


The rectifier is the old one which I have assumed is faulty. But as the engine is not starting I am also suspecting the CDI.

[rodbolt17]

Boscoe.
can you post a wiring diagram for the 02 F80 and I can explain how the system works.

[boscoe99]

Boscoe.
can you post a wiring diagram for the 02 F80 and I can explain how the system works.

Well, somebody better explain, or there'll, uh... there'll be a lot of explaining to do.

[akis-yamaha]

Thanks.

It seems the rectifier works off of the number 7 named "lighting coil". I presume it sits under the flywheel.

The problem seems to be there is another coil, named "pick up coil" and it seems it is this coil that powers the ignition system, whereas the recrtifier simply powers the CDI (and charges the battery).

If the rectifier/regulator were removed, the battery would still provide power to the CDI. So the rectifier cannot be the reason why there is no spark.

Then, I need to establish whether the "pick up coil" provides any voltage, because it seems this is what powers the ignition coils.

If that is healthy that would leave the CDI being the culprit.

How can one check that the "pick up coils" are working as they should?

[akis-yamaha]

I found this diagram of parts composing what they call "generator". Assuming something in there has burned, because we smelled burn, and that is the only place it seems to be coming from, the parts are very expensive. Some parts like the CDI cost $350 but in the EU it costs the equivalent of $1000...

http://www.crowleymarine.com/yp/GW98...tlra-2002-80hp

[rodbolt17]

no.
the ign system is 12v battery powered.
its called a TCI system.
I don't know why they still call it a CDI.
its a 12V transistor con*****ed waste spark system.
toss the lighting coil or the regulator in the creek and it will still spark until the battery is dead.
the pulser coils are ign timning triggers.
they simply tell the ign unit when to shut off ign coil primary current.

[boscoe99]

no.
the ign system is 12v battery powered.
its called a TCI system.
I don't know why they still call it a CDI.
its a 12V transistor con*****ed waste spark system.
toss the lighting coil or the regulator in the creek and it will still spark until the battery is dead.
the pulser coils are ign timning triggers.
they simply tell the ign unit when to shut off ign coil primary current.

Aha. You have broken the code.

Yamaha done got me again. You damn near have to take everything they say with a grain of salt. Assume anything about a Yam and one is subject to being an ass.

[akis-yamaha]

no.
the ign system is 12v battery powered.
its called a TCI system.
I don't know why they still call it a CDI.
its a 12V transistor con*****ed waste spark system.
toss the lighting coil or the regulator in the creek and it will still spark until the battery is dead.
the pulser coils are ign timning triggers.
they simply tell the ign unit when to shut off ign coil primary current.

Thanks!

A question would be, what can possibly go wrong if you remove the positive battery terminal and run the engine with a presumably faulty regulator? In my case the engine stalled, and there was a smell of burn. Most likely coming from the lighting or pulser coils, all hiding under the flywheel.

I suppose that the 12V line that powers the TCI now becomes "dirty" and feeds garbage into the TCI. The TCI either gets destroyed or somehow manages to destroy/melt/smell of burn the lighting or pulser coils?

[boscoe99]

Thanks.

It seems the rectifier works off of the number 7 named "lighting coil". I presume it sits under the flywheel. Yes.

The problem seems to be there is another coil, named "pick up coil" and it seems it is this coil that powers the ignition system no, whereas the recrtifier simply powers the CDI (TCI microcomputer) (and charges the battery) yes.

If the rectifier/regulator were removed, the battery would still provide power to the CDI. So the rectifier cannot be the reason why there is no spark. Agree

Then, I need to establish whether the "pick up coil" provides any voltage they do, because it seems this is what powers the ignition coils no. The pick up coils generate a voltage but that voltage is just used to tell the engine's computer (known by many names) when to fire the coils.

If that is healthy that would leave the CDI being the culprit.

How can one check that the "pick up coils" are working as they should? follow the procedure listed in the service manual

See rodbolts comments. The motor uses a TCI microcomputer. Not a CDI box. Therefore, no charge coil. Yamaha data is incorrect. No surprise there.

Best place to order replacement Yamaha parts IMO is the website that sponsors this forum.

2002 F80TLRA Yamaha Outboard GENERATOR Diagram and Parts

[akis-yamaha]

OK I am downloading (slowly) the service manual, but the internet here on the remote Greek island is terrible.

Still trying to identify the source of burn/small, which my nose pointed towards the flywheel, would anyone please be able to tell me:

1) Can I remove the flywheel so that I can visually inspect the various coils hiding underneath and see if there is anything melted or burned?

2) There is a rather large nut that holds the flywheel down, the flywheel turning clockwise as I crank the engine, which way should I try to unscrew this nut?

3) If I manage to unscrew the nut and lift the flywheel off, will I then be able to put it back down, or will I lose the correct orientation and will not be able to place it properly?

Many thanks for all your help.